which headgasket?!

1. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

   #1 12th June 2017, 14:51

   Afternoon
   
   
   Had my JP4 head skimmed for use on a J4 block.
   For now, I'm planning on running it n/a just to let any problems worm their way out.
   
   Am I correct in thinking I need to use the JP4 haedgasket for clearance?
   Also, when I had it skimmed the bloke didn't give me a measurement he just described it as a 'light skim'
   
   
   Therefore I have various queries...
   
   A) Will I get away with one headgasket
   B) Will it run okay if I double them up now in anticipation for turbo time, or will this cause more harm than good and is generally frowned upon? I'm sure people have got away with half a bar on double gaskets?
   
   
   Thanks guys
2. Chipwizards Frequent Poster Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 576

   #2 12th June 2017, 22:19

   Doubling gaskets isn't really ideal.
   How much power and torque are you looking for?
3. axsaxoman Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380

   #3 13th June 2017, 08:34

   dry build engine to see
   refit head with old gasket --just nip it down +time up cams
   having already put a lump of clay ontop of a piston --turn engine over 2 turns by hand with no plugs in it -remove head and see how much clearnace you have --by thickness of clay
4. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

   #4 14th June 2017, 15:06

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Chipwizards Doubling gaskets isn't really ideal. How much power and torque are you looking for?

   I'd be happy with 200bhp on a safe 7psi. Might be a tad optimistic.
   Want it to be reliable enough that it starts and runs every time, a few times a week. Just want it to be good fun, I'm not trying to push it or blow it up.
   
   I've spoken to a few people and apparently running double gaskets on a n/a set up (just to get it on the road and find any other little niggles) will wreak havoc on the engine. I understand it will lower compression a tad but wasn't too sure how much it would effect it in the meantime until its all built.
   
   I know the proper way to do it is decomp plate, I was just trying to save wasting a headgasket and having to buy a second set of headbolts!
5. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

   #5 14th June 2017, 15:11

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by axsaxoman dry build engine to see refit head with old gasket --just nip it down +time up cams having already put a lump of clay ontop of a piston --turn engine over 2 turns by hand with no plugs in it -remove head and see how much clearnace you have --by thickness of clay

   I have since spoken to the engineer and he said it was literally just a clean up.
   He said running a standard gasket will give it a bit of a tweak - as the C/R will be a touch lower, but he doesn't specialise in citroens so I don't think he understands the different clearances between the engines.
   
   Clay idea seems a very safe and sensible way to check, I shall bear that in mind! Either way, it will need a new gasket as I understand I should use the corresponding gasket for that particular head - in my case I should use a jp4 head.
   
   I think I will have to check the clearance with standard gasket as you have stated - I just wondered what people used as the norm when completing this conversion. I should have thought a +0.2 gasket should suffice (without checking it)
   
   
   
   While I've got you - are you in agreement that running double gaskets to decomp the engine (as you would for a budget turbo build) whilst running N/A will upset the engine?
6. axsaxoman Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2003 Scotland Posts: 3380

   #6 15th June 2017, 08:16

   7psi max and correct ecu mods --no need to lower comp ratio
   modern OEM turbo cars run 10/1 comp ratio and 1bar of boost
   old wrc cars ran 3 bar of boost +10/1 comp --so its all in the ecu +turbo control
7. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

   #7 19th June 2017, 14:54

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by axsaxoman 7psi max and correct ecu mods --no need to lower comp ratio modern OEM turbo cars run 10/1 comp ratio and 1bar of boost old wrc cars ran 3 bar of boost +10/1 comp --so its all in the ecu +turbo control

   Will be getting hold of a standalone ECU as I believe the 5th injector method to be a bit grimy and totally 90's!!
   
   I was not aware the standard engine would take boost at standard compression, I would be lowering merely as a precaution?
8. MartinObviously Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge

   #8 19th June 2017, 19:26

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by smokeandpoke Will be getting hold of a standalone ECU as I believe the 5th injector method to be a bit grimy and totally 90's!! I was not aware the standard engine would take boost at standard compression, I would be lowering merely as a precaution?

   The standard ECU can be mapped to work with boost. just need a map which reads postive pressure.
   
   I've seen it! someone did it with their red C2
   
   
   compression isn't a huge factor, fuel type, quantity, air temp and ignition timing I think affect how much boost you can use more - things which affect knock. I'll get corrected no doubt, I'm pretty clueless. I'm a diesel man at heart and i upped my compression to 25:1... with boost
9. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

   #9 20th June 2017, 15:09

   Quote:

   Originally Posted by MartinObviously The standard ECU can be mapped to work with boost. just need a map which reads postive pressure. I've seen it! someone did it with their red C2 compression isn't a huge factor, fuel type, quantity, air temp and ignition timing I think affect how much boost you can use more - things which affect knock. I'll get corrected no doubt, I'm pretty clueless. I'm a diesel man at heart and i upped my compression to 25:1... with boost

   
   Really? I'm sure someone could do it, but for the time and effort (and effectiveness) I would probably still go standalone unless it is considerably cheaper than a standalone.
   
   25:1 on a saxo? wow!
   That's nothing for a diesel, but I am surprised your saxo didn't turn itself inside out hahaha!!
10. gti180craig Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Birmingham Posts: 458 Saxo vtr turbo

    #10 20th June 2017, 16:17

    Mine is running standard ecu with a 2 bar map sensor Wayne from chipwizards Is the man to see
11. MartinObviously Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Dec 2012 Perth Posts: 3665 Peugeot 106 1.1 Turbo Peugeot 106 1.5D Turbo Peuge

    #11 20th June 2017, 21:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gti180craig Mine is running standard ecu with a 2 bar map sensor Wayne from chipwizards Is the man to see

    Yes!
    
    

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smokeandpoke Really? I'm sure someone could do it, but for the time and effort (and effectiveness) I would probably still go standalone unless it is considerably cheaper than a standalone. 25:1 on a saxo? wow! That's nothing for a diesel, but I am surprised your saxo didn't turn itself inside out hahaha!!

    Of course having your standard ECU mapped to accept boost is WAY cheaper. it'll cost you a sensor, some injectors and a day on dyno.
    
    Yes 23:1 standard 1.5D, it's indirect injection
12. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

    #12 20th June 2017, 21:35

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MartinObviously Yes! Of course having your standard ECU mapped to accept boost is WAY cheaper. it'll cost you a sensor, some injectors and a day on dyno. Yes 23:1 standard 1.5D, it's indirect injection

    Oh sorry I assumed petrol!
    
    I didn't think there were many people that could do it, if you know of anyone in the south east get them to get in touch!!
    
    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
13. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

    #13 20th June 2017, 21:42

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gti180craig Mine is running standard ecu with a 2 bar map sensor Wayne from chipwizards Is the man to see

    Sorry Craig didn't see this mate.
    Where abouts is wayne based?
    
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14. gti180craig Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Birmingham Posts: 458 Saxo vtr turbo

    #14 21st June 2017, 05:01

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smokeandpoke Sorry Craig didn't see this mate. Where abouts is wayne based? Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

    Near Wigan mate bit Of a drive for u but worth it
15. AdamH Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Oct 2004 South Posts: 3638

    #15 21st June 2017, 10:24

    207 map sensor by any chance craig?

    1 user thanked this post: smokeandpoke
16. gti180craig Regular Poster Joined: Jan 2008 Birmingham Posts: 458 Saxo vtr turbo

    #16 21st June 2017, 12:30

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AdamH 207 map sensor by any chance craig?

    correct mate also found on a Mini Cooper s and ds3

    1 user thanked this post: smokeandpoke
17. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

    #17 21st June 2017, 12:39

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gti180craig correct mate also found on a Mini Cooper s and ds3

    Nice one mate, solid starting point. I assume it's off the thp one?
    
    Adam my fountain of knowledge as usual!!!!
    
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18. AdamH Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Oct 2004 South Posts: 3638

    #18 22nd June 2017, 12:15

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by smokeandpoke Adam my fountain of knowledge as usual!!!!

    
    "blushes"
    
    Yea 1.6 THP, doesn't matter which BHP version
    
    
    PSA 207GTI 1.6 THP
    Citroen/Peugeot = Part Number = 1992 R6
    BMW/Mini = Part Number = 62 7 535 069 / 13627535069
19. smokeandpoke Regular Poster Joined: Aug 2014 Surrey Posts: 275 '57 Vauxhall Vectra CDTI - Daily '02 Saxo VTS - Tu

    #19 22nd June 2017, 12:18

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AdamH "blushes" Yea 1.6 THP, doesn't matter which BHP version

    Haha you tart!!!
    Awesome. I may look into that if I can find someone down this end of the country, gave him a Google and it's a good 4 and a bit hours each way.
    
    
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