fuel in oil - piston rings?

1st August 2017, 14:39

Guys

As you may or may not know I've finally got the VTS running and on the road.
I've done about 150 miles in it since the build.

My filler cap smells of fuel, as does my dipstick.
The car does not smoke AT ALL so im a bit confused.

My breathers (jp4 head) are just open at the moment - it's on my to do list. Only mention it as someone has said this may contribute a bit... but surely not to the extent of the dipstick smelling?

I'll compression test it when I can get my hands on a tester, and wont drive it anymore I suppose...

Just wanted to check its definitely my piston rings that have gone (I did have a drop in compression cylinders 3/4 before the rebuild, but put it down to being the head, as when it got taken apart the valve literally fell out of cyl. 4, the stem seal was SHAGGED)

Is there anything else it could be?

1st August 2017, 16:05

Under acceleration do your tappets rattle?That's another sign of the piston rings are faulty.

1st August 2017, 16:13

I think I did warned you of this some time ago
incorrect mapping --over rich will cause this
get oil and filter changed NOW -get it mapped NOW or it will kill the engine
makes your oil like PISS --won,t protect anything and could cause all sort of rattles from lifters +pistons etc
worst scenario is the engine will explode if you get a real good petrol vapour building up +BOOM

1st August 2017, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo67

Under acceleration do your tappets rattle?That's another sign of the piston rings are faulty.

Steve

The tappets used to rattle before the head was rebuilt - it's bang tidy and smooth as pudd'n now. Once it had fresh oil and had been warned up a few times it quietened down, she's had a little bit of limiter action and she's quiet as.
Still got a few issues with idle sometimes.

I've had multiple opinions from various mechanic friends that have said she sounds really good and steady considering it's had a head swap etc!

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1st August 2017, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

I think I did warned you of this some time ago
incorrect mapping --over rich will cause this
get oil and filter changed NOW -get it mapped NOW or it will kill the engine
makes your oil like PISS --won,t protect anything and could cause all sort of rattles from lifters +pistons etc
worst scenario is the engine will explode if you get a real good petrol vapour building up +BOOM

It's n/a running standard management, jp4 head, j4 cams etc. Not turboing until everything's sorted and solid!

I had the head rebuilt last month and was tested for leaks etc and it's solid.
When the head went on, it had a new filter and oil, which was probably just over 150 miles ago.

The oil is still a reasonable viscosity.
I'm going to measure the level when stone cold, do 20-30 miles perhaps? And then measure again to check if the oil level is rising.
Need to get hold of a compression tester really and that will give a better indication, but piston rings is really all it can be right?

As above, it doesn't knock, rattle or smoke while idling or going along and pulls amazingly well, doesn't feel down on power at all.

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2nd August 2017, 08:35

its not a compression test you need to do but a cylinder leakage test
If you have any cylinder pressure loss that will show where its going -down bores or out of ex or inlet valves
I doubt you will see oil level rise even if its bad -oil will just get thinner
If you can smell petrol then its bad news for engine life
you seem to want to get opinions form all over .
I am not giving you an opinion but plain fact of what is and will happen if you do not cure the problem NOW

2nd August 2017, 09:40

Mine does the same. Changed the head gasket, refurbed the head and the only things I havent changed are the piston rings (impossible to get) and the water/oil heat exchanger.

I put fresh oil in it about 100 miles ago and it already stinks of fuel. My water in the radiator is reeking of fuel too and full of gunk.

2nd August 2017, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

its not a compression test you need to do but a cylinder leakage test
If you have any cylinder pressure loss that will show where its going -down bores or out of ex or inlet valves
I doubt you will see oil level rise even if its bad -oil will just get thinner
If you can smell petrol then its bad news for engine life
you seem to want to get opinions form all over .
I am not giving you an opinion but plain fact of what is and will happen if you do not cure the problem NOW

It shouldn't be the head as it was only rebuilt and put on a few weeks ago.
You may be right it'd be worth testing leakage as well, I just have easier access to a compression tester, and I have trouble with cylinders 3&4 before so would like to see where I'm at now. I think that would give at least some indication, it'd show something isn't right, and as the head is bang tidy it would only leave piston rings.

Yeah, you're not wrong in that I'm after people's experiences with similar problems.. that's the point of the thread! If multi opinions concur then I'll have something to go on! I know WHAT will happen, I'm just working out how it's in this state! Wasn't disregarding your advice at all, I've seen various threads with the same issue, fuel smelling oil, and as you said above, heavily overfuelling can contribute to that, there was a thread and the guys lambda was naff so ECU was just dumping fuel!

If the vts didn't run so cool, i.e 1/3 of the way up the gauge when driving around I wouldn't be so worried.

Bottom line its time for a bottom end rebuild?!

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2nd August 2017, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synister

Mine does the same. Changed the head gasket, refurbed the head and the only things I havent changed are the piston rings (impossible to get) and the water/oil heat exchanger.

I put fresh oil in it about 100 miles ago and it already stinks of fuel. My water in the radiator is reeking of fuel too and full of gunk.

They still make them at Citroen! Saw a set on eBay from a redmans engineering (?) iirc, 70 a set. Looks like it'd be worth doing dude!!

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2nd August 2017, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synister

Mine does the same. Changed the head gasket, refurbed the head and the only things I havent changed are the piston rings (impossible to get) and the water/oil heat exchanger.

I put fresh oil in it about 100 miles ago and it already stinks of fuel. My water in the radiator is reeking of fuel too and full of gunk.

piston rings are available as are the heat exchanger
no point in running car with the exchanger connected if its leaking --just disconnect blank off the hoses and the ends of the exchanger --or remove it and blank off hoses --or change for a 106gti top hose --they don,t have them

2nd August 2017, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

piston rings are available as are the heat exchanger
no point in running car with the exchanger connected if its leaking --just disconnect blank off the hoses and the ends of the exchanger --or remove it and blank off hoses --or change for a 106gti top hose --they don,t have them

The heat exchanger - around the oil filter?
What can go wrong with these? If not given it a thought!

Mine appears to be holding water, was bled properly, it does run really col though which is why I'm leaning toward an overfuelling issue and am trying to avoid taking the bottom end apart!!

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3rd August 2017, 08:26

Sorry, I should have said. Mine's not a J4/JP4 (it's a TU2).

Because I think my rings are allowing the fuel to mix with the oil. I've been told the heat exchanger can allow the water to mix with the oil. It would explain my radiator gunk and smell of fuel in my water.

I've searched about and the fastest and most cost effective way to do it is find a fresh TU5 block from the scrappy and just swap them over. They came in the C2's, 206's, 207's, 307's etc so low milage options are plentiful.

3rd August 2017, 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synister

Sorry, I should have said. Mine's not a J4/JP4 (it's a TU2).

Because I think my rings are allowing the fuel to mix with the oil. I've been told the heat exchanger can allow the water to mix with the oil. It would explain my radiator gunk and smell of fuel in my water.

I've searched about and the fastest and most cost effective way to do it is find a fresh TU5 block from the scrappy and just swap them over. They came in the C2's, 206's, 207's, 307's etc so low milage options are plentiful.

disconnect the het exchanger and block off water pipes
then check the water pipe connections on the exchanger after a run --if oil is coming out --then its leaking oil into the water system --
If not its ok
you would not be the first to be caught out thinking h/gasket is gone and its the exchanger thats leaking oil into the water system
INCLUDING ME !!

3rd August 2017, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synister

Sorry, I should have said. Mine's not a J4/JP4 (it's a TU2).

Because I think my rings are allowing the fuel to mix with the oil. I've been told the heat exchanger can allow the water to mix with the oil. It would explain my radiator gunk and smell of fuel in my water.

I've searched about and the fastest and most cost effective way to do it is find a fresh TU5 block from the scrappy and just swap them over. They came in the C2's, 206's, 207's, 307's etc so low milage options are plentiful.

I need a j4 block if I were to swap it out tbh. I've got a jp4 block sitting spare but apparently the rods on them aren't up to much!

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3rd August 2017, 09:25

not quite as simple as that
oil filter is plastic type on jp4+ breather system different --so some mods to do to fit as a saxo block

3rd August 2017, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by axsaxoman

not quite as simple as that
oil filter is plastic type on jp4+ breather system different --so some mods to do to fit as a saxo block

I'm not wanting to use the jp4 block or I wouldn't have split the head from it and would have out the whole thing in!!

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3rd August 2017, 17:18

sounds like bore washing to me , whats your A/F ratio at ?

3rd August 2017, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack-s5axy

sounds like bore washing to me , running a rich map ?

It's on standard 3 plug ECU.

J4 block
Jp4 head with j4 internals

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4th August 2017, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack-s5axy

whats your A/F ratio at ?

I don't have a gauge installed.
is there another way to check?

7th August 2017, 12:21

What coulor are your plugs ? Should be a nice golden brown

7th August 2017, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack-s5axy

What coulor are your plugs ? Should be a nice golden brown

Plugs are ok, had a second opinion on them and they aren't out of check at all.

Weekends results:

Compression test - 180psi +/- 5psi all cylinders

Leak down test - next to no leakage on any cylinder.

MYSTERY!

I'm guessing as it didn't have a flush and is the first fresh oil in it, perhaps it's residual from the old oil? I don't know anymore, good results have left me more confused! Will dump this oil and stick something a tiny bit thicker in, just keep changing and dumping and hopefully this should clear it up?

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