Cam(s) Thread

19th November 2006, 14:22

Right then guys and girls, im looking to make this a sticky thread (hopefully) with your support, as there seem to be loads and loads of cam threads popping up every week, and the same questions are being answered time and time again! so if all the cam geeks

out there would car to add anything to the thread please do. Im looking to get FAQ's and answers, and any info that you deem relevant about cam(s)

As im not that hot on cams, the way they work or the size of cam needed for certain requirements, i.e. if i wanted to get noticable gains from my car, but still wanted to use it as a daily drive, what sort of cam shold i be looking at getting!

now i found THIS WEBSITE which has a lot of helpful info on it, and also helps to explain how they work!

Feel free to add anything you deem appropriate (please no spamming)

thanks again

Oli

19th November 2006, 14:47

cam lift - this is given in mm (milimeters), this states buy how many milimeters the cam will open the valve.
cam duration - this is a rough figure of the number of degress the crank turns between teh valve opening and closing.
note: most cams are not teh duration they are advertised as e.g. piper 285s for the vts is actuallky about 260 degress.
you can also go on to look at lift at TDC and at other points in a revolution of the crank.

as i dont have any experiance with fitting cams or having cams in a vtr i can only relly comment on the 16v.

tbh, the next cams up from stabndard (e.g. piper 270s) arent really worth it.
you would be better off going for the next step up (kent pt51, piper 285, catcams 708), all these will give you good power gains when mapped and can be timed to give you a good idle even when unmapped.

other things to change when camming your car would be , cambelt, camshaft oil seals, and depending on mileage water pump and pulleys.
i also changed my head gasket before it went to be mapped as i wanted everything to be perfect so that the cam timing didnt need to be disturbed once set correctly.

when choosing a cam you want to leave about 1.5mm valve to piston clearance, you never know what could happen

lift on standard cam is 8.49mm and has valve clearance of 3.01mm, so you can work it out from there (although this would need to be worked out from lift at TDC). if you were wanting cams with more lift you would either need your pistons rebated or some forged pistons. you would also need to consider throttle bodies as cams with that much lift would be being restricted by the standard inlet.

any more questions feel free to ask

oh, and running in: start the engine check it aint guna bend any valves then turn it off. now check teh tension of teh belt. if its ok start it back up and hold the revs up for a few mins. now it will be ready to go for a nice leasurly drive

19th November 2006, 15:08

I have also decided to add the link from Simo's 'How To' section for instructions on FITTING UPRATED CAMS

19th November 2006, 15:11

it hasnt been mentioned in that 'how to' that you need to tension the cam ladder bolts to 8NM

20th November 2006, 08:03

Have also found a website, which has some FAQ's on cams.....

CLICK>> FAQ's on cams <<CLICK

23rd November 2006, 23:08

another helpful site HERE thanks to Piper

29th November 2006, 17:49

Heres a quick question i have installed the piper 285 cam to my vtr am i going to struggle at mot time for emissions reason i ask is it states that maybe it will be a problem on the gmc website thanks.

29th November 2006, 20:01

no you wont

30th November 2006, 10:14

depends how its mapped.

24th October 2007, 23:48

is it worth doing to a 1.4i?

25th October 2007, 03:25

not imo.

26th October 2007, 19:34

hi guys, did post this else where but didnt realise there is a cam section

basically i have a 106 gti and would like to cam it. what cams could i run without having the car mapped, this is due to me living on the isle of wight and not having anyone to do the map.

once iv fitted the cams how do i go about setting the timing up on the adjustable pulleys to get it to run correctly?

what sort of gains would i be looking at on a gti with usal mods... forced induction, decat, exhaust, ported and polished tb, bareing in mind i will be running them without the remap... for the time being anyway

thanxs

27th October 2007, 15:36

i was only talking about the induction type, as in a bmc.

27th October 2007, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-iow

i was only talking about the induction type, as in a bmc.

we know you were. excuse the children. tbh mate you want a map to set the corect fueling etc. if your not gonna map it i wouldnt bother putting them in

17th January 2008, 21:46

Good Thread...
So what would i gain by fitting my Kent PT40's then?
Got some here, But What else would i need?
I have the Cams and Pulley already...
Would Performance change?
Would I just need to Change the Timing to make it idle right, don't tend to get the general Gist?
Cheers

17th January 2008, 21:49

Oh yeah, Also, Would it make a difference being on an older engine? 90BHP, as opposed to the 98?
Whats the actual Difference between the 90 and 98's to make the power difference?
David

17th January 2008, 21:57

you could get it to run but would need to be mapped ideally

20th January 2008, 14:52

imho i think that camming a 1.4 is fine but it has to be complemented by exhaust decat mani induction kit etc.

25th September 2008, 19:36

i live in brum and i was wondering where can i go to get 708cams, wid map, oil pressure regulater and to get the head gas flowed

29th September 2008, 19:57

We can supply and fit 708's, and also produce the predator ECU, which can be fitted and mapped to suit.

PS> There is an error on this thread, you DO NOT idle the cams to bed them in, each manufacturer has there specific ways. for instance PH3's are 20min @ 2250 RPM.

9th February 2009, 08:20

where can you get decent throttlebodies for 02 tu3jp 1.4

2nd January 2010, 21:05

has any one had experience running ph4's or simular on standard inlet? if so did it run well?

2nd January 2010, 21:09

have to have pocket pistons for them two, and i dont think you will get the power of of them, have to double check but i think without bodies they will be very retricted to what they are doing!

andy

2nd January 2010, 21:13

got some forged pistons

2nd January 2010, 21:18

I would say PH3's/ 708's is as far as you can go with the standard inlet. You could try something like a C2 VTS metal inlet manifold and larger diameter throttle body, but ITBs are always going to offer better driveability imo.

2nd January 2010, 21:39

i thought the c2's have electronic throttles dont know if that would be an easy thing to sort out,just have to do more research nearer the time i.e newmans etc

2nd January 2010, 21:41

The C2 throttle body is fly by wire but GMC sell an adapter plate so you can use the metal inlet with the cabled VTS TB. Or you could have a plate made up to fit a larger (cabled) TB, i.e MK1 Clio 172.

The C2 VTS inlet is £300 from Citroen, then you need to modify fuel rail etc. Won't be much more going for ITBs I rekon.

2nd January 2010, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

The C2 throttle body is fly by wire but GMC sell an adapter plate so you can use the metal inlet with the cabled VTS TB. Or you could have a plate made up to fit a larger (cabled) TB, i.e MK1 Clio 172.

The C2 VTS inlet is £300 from Citroen, then you need to modify fuel rail etc. Won't be much more going for ITBs I rekon.

if i did that would try to soucre 2nd hand stuff etc,tbh the car that is being built is a "cheap as possible" track car so itbs would push the budget up to high

2nd January 2010, 21:54

Just run the engine standard then, and spend the money elsewhere

2nd January 2010, 22:14

ooo well i think maybe save for bodies, as you must of already spent alot for forged goodies,

so maybe just get bodies and run ph4, but would do some head work aswell unless you are using a jp4 head?

but i think they can run on standard inlet but will not get the power out of them.

andy

3rd January 2010, 01:43

i like it how people say piper 270's aren't worth it for the vts, i put them in mine a couple of years ago. when it had the dta management on it ran a tad over 150bhp. this wasn't on crappy rollers either, i had it ran on 3 seperate rolling roads and all made within 2 bhp of each other.

3rd January 2010, 04:35

this thread is wic'd with epic bumps, bravo. Good read though

14th February 2010, 22:27

Im new to all this but thought would see what people think..

I have currently got a mrk1 silver vts and has got mods done to it already such as, induction, lowered, exhaust and has covered alot of miles but still runs sweet. Am looking into getting another engine found one with just under 70k on the clock out of a W reg and am thinking about putting the following mods to the new engine..

piper 285 cams, supersprint manifold and supersprint de-cat.. Any opinions?

cheers

14th February 2010, 22:41

The fact its silver changes everything..

Is the W reg engine single or triple plug?

14th February 2010, 23:31

W reg will be single plug. Go with your plans and have it mapped at Chipwizards - from what I've seen, the single plugs make good power and go well.

14th February 2010, 23:36

W reg is 2000 the change over year. Ive seen some triple and some single.

14th February 2010, 23:39

I thought 3 plugs were Y reg onwards... unless that's only for the VTR?

14th February 2010, 23:43

Theyre all messed up at that time. The VTRs had alsorts of inlets, head and bottom end combinations. Some dodgy ones.

14th February 2010, 23:44

Can't say I've seen a W or X reg VTS with 3 plug ECU... quite a lot of them have the '2 prong' head and no EGR/ fresh air pump fitted though.

16th February 2010, 18:30

I heard 285's by staff at piper that if u run them on a vts without throttle bodys u will have all sorts of problems like general driving and running to lean. Is this true? has anyone got 285's on there vts or gti and not had any trouble? if so which other cams are good.. i want there to be a noticable difference in speed not to bothered about top end.. and ent to bothered on the price either just dont no which make or type of cams to go for?? cheers..

16th February 2010, 21:15

285's are similar in profile to PH3's/ 708's - I would go for Newman PH3's due to their competitive pricing.

It will run with the above cams fitted, just a bit lumpy if you use the standard timing marks. You can tweak the timing to give a smooth idle, but I doubt you're going to notice much difference running them on the standard map. You ideally want the standard ECU or a standalone unit remapped along with the cam timing adjusted to suit.

Chipwizards are popular if you go for the standard ECU remap option.

16th February 2010, 22:29

ok.. why are the 285's so expensive compared with the 708's if there ent much difference?
Aww cool im having trouble finding a place for a remap when needed.

So u think it is worth getting newmans rather then cat cams or 258 pipers?

Was trying to find location of chipwizards, i am located in berkshire near reading, maidenhead etc

16th February 2010, 23:07

Piper gear is quite expensive mate. There's been talk about the Piper cams being made to 'better tolerances', but loads of people use Newman PH3's and don't have any problems. Never heard of a TU engine wearing a cam out before, so with a set of brand new blanks I'd say you can rest easy, haha.

Linky to Chipwizards contact us page.

17th February 2010, 21:35

right cheers for that..
will prob go for the 708's as they seem the cheapest and ent much difference

2nd March 2010, 13:51

Thought I may as well bump this up, I have searched before you moan, but I want to know for 10000000% what exactly I will need to replace when fitting a PH3 to my VTR?

And also iirc correctly a PH3 in a silvertop will run fine without a remap...?

And what else could I fit/upgrade at the same time to save me having to delve into the head again when I fit the bike bodies....

2nd March 2010, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxoMuffin

Thought I may as well bump this up, I have searched before you moan, but I want to know for 10000000% what exactly I will need to replace when fitting a PH3 to my VTR?

And also iirc correctly a PH3 in a silvertop will run fine without a remap...?

And what else could I fit/upgrade at the same time to save me having to delve into the head again when I fit the bike bodies....

1. I'd replace the following:

- cambelt, tensioner and waterpump
- Thermostat and new antifreeze
- Headgasket, headbolts, exhaust manifold and inlet gasket (not 100% needed tbh)
- Camshaft oil seal
- Camshaft lube
- Vernier Camshaft pulley
- rocker cover gasket
- I'd bung some new oil, oil filter and spark plugs in there
- fuel filter

2. I don't know about a remap, might be worth holding off fitting the camshaft until you've got OMEX and bodies incase it does run rough without a remap? I'd personally rather have a camshaft sitting in my bedroom, than have 3months of the car being lumpy, cutting out etc. whilst I save for bodies and standalone.

3. You might need uprated valve springs? I don't know much about the 8v engine so not 100% about this but do recall some of them needed better valve springs to cope with the lift? Could go for a little bit of headwork whilst the head is off, then just match the inlet to a template you made of the ports whilst you've got the head off?

2nd March 2010, 17:10

Would it not be beneficial to have a 'worn in' cam for when the bodies go on?

2nd March 2010, 17:16

well you wear the camshaft in when you first start the car.

So you could fit the camshaft and all the bits (not TBs or OMEX), run the car for 20mins at 2.5k-3kish (don't let it idle), let it warm up - and maybe put 50-100miles on it? Can go down the motorway or something.

Then you can fit the TB's and OMEX straight after this is all's well. I'd go a bit easy on the new hg and cambelt for a bit, but should be fine as the lower sites are mapped first.

So the camshaft is run at around 2.5k-3k for 20minutes. Some camshafts come delivered already hardened, but I'd still run the camshaft in in this manner just to make sure.

This is the way I did it as didnt want to run my car with the cams unmapped for too long as there wasn't much point fitting the camshaft early tbh, apart from being impatient

so I held off, fitted the cams, run them in, took the car for a little drive.

Then got Andy to map up my Predator the following day = jobs a good'un

2nd March 2010, 17:29

Hmmm.....I'm very impatient... I'll have a bit of a long word with AtSpeed next week when I pay for the Omex (Which I think you should do to)

2nd March 2010, 17:33

lol, my Predator has gone off to get a MAP sensor fitted so will be using that for going boost - saves me £800odd in the cost of OMEX and loom (Can put this towards a nice cage

)

Been speaking to Andy and got a few avenues to check with my rev limit which we're pretty confident will solve it so hopefully all should be good !#

lol, if you are impatient then get the cam fitted - I'm just not sure if it's worth having it cutting out etc. if you're running it unmapped. If you alter the timing then I'd presume you can get it to run okay?

2nd March 2010, 18:32

If you're going for bodies, 100% get a wilder cam... i.e Kent PT41. PH3 is too mild imo - the car will run like standard with it unmapped. Won't cut out etc.

As above, fit uprated valves springs (might as well do stem oil seals at same time) - £60 from Piper. You'll want a vernier pulley too.

2nd March 2010, 18:48

will you not need rebated pistons to take the increased lift a wilder cam would give?

2nd March 2010, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

will you not need rebated pistons to take the increased lift a wilder cam would give?

The website doesn't mention anything, so I'm assuming not. Might be worth speaking to Sandy Brown or GMC as no doubt they'll know what the max valve/ piston clearance is with std internals.

2nd March 2010, 19:03

I know it will be having bodies but would anything wilder in a mk2 vtr just be stupid for daily driving?

2nd March 2010, 19:05

I'll take you out in mine during the easter, and you can see how easy/standard it is to drive on the road - you'd never know really it has fast road cams until you give it some stick

2nd March 2010, 19:07

I had a Kent PT40 (which is near enough the same profile as a Newman PH3) fitted... ran it unmapped with the standard inlet and had the timing adjusted on the rollers to suit. Probably gained about 10bhp and some mid range torque, but the car idled exactly the same as it did with the standard cam... it didn't seem 'wild' in the slightest.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point of ITB's is to use them with 'wilder' cam(s) and maintain a decent idle. Fitting them with a PH3/ PT40 is a total waste imo - the cam/ mapping process isn't going to cost you any more if you get a 'wilder' one. I'm 99% sure the PT41 doesn't need machined pistons (best e-mail them to ask). Providing you fit it with a vernier pulley and have the timing and the map adjusted to suit (by someone reputable), the car will be fine for daily driving.

Would be an excellent setup imo.

2nd March 2010, 19:17

Got to be careful though about piston to valve clearance and then whether the valve springs are man enough to cope with the increased lift.

I do agree with going as wild as possible (to match the desired end point, ie rally car, fast road car, daily driver) but you can get some god results with maybe slightly wilder cams, and then getting a good inlet and exhaust setup with good mapping to get the most out of them.

Instead you could get a wild cam, but not have the exhaust and inlet to make the most out of it and may end up with less power/driveability than the less wild cam - just something to bear in mind.

I'd run as wild as you can safely run on the standard pistons - but change the valve springs if needed to run the camshaft safely.

I think the main advantage of TB's is getting an equal afr across the cylinders which leads to a nicer idle, more low down grunt and awesome noise !!!

2nd March 2010, 19:22

Agreed with valve/ piston clearance. You'd need to do plenty research to see what the lift of the PT41 is and the max clearance with standard pistons. Then you/ the mapper knows how much you have to play with when adjusting the timing from standard.

GMC told me that any aftermarket cam in a silver top 8V needs uprated valve springs. I told Kent Cams this and they disagreed saying the PT40 was fine with the original valve springs. The only time I'd fit uprated items with a PT40/ PH3 or similar profile cam is if the car was getting mapped with a raised rev limit.

For something like a PT41, I'd say uprated valve springs are a must... you're going to be working them much harder. They're only £60 from Piper, so not the end of the world.

I've been down the "let's throw stupid amounts of money at a VTR" route before and was pretty disappointed with the results I got for the outlay. The VTR gearbox does let things down quite a lot, but even still, I expected a noticeable difference in grunt which wasn't really there. Do the job right: plenty research (talking to the right people) and go as wild as possible (within reason).

2nd March 2010, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeumH

Agreed with valve/ piston clearance. You'd need to do plenty research to see what the lift of the PT41 is and the max clearance with standard pistons. Then you/ the mapper knows how much you have to play with when adjusting the timing from standard.

GMC told me that any aftermarket cam in a silver top 8V needs uprated valve springs. I told Kent Cams this and they disagreed saying the PT40 was fine with the original valve springs. The only time I'd fit uprated items with a PT40/ PH3 or similar profile cam is if the car was getting mapped with a raised rev limit.

For something like a PT41, I'd say uprated valve springs are a must... you're going to be working them much harder. They're only £60 from Piper, so not the end of the world.

I've been down the "let's throw stupid amounts of money at a VTR" route before and was pretty disappointed with the results I got for the outlay. The VTR gearbox does let things down quite a lot, but even still, I expected a noticeable difference in grunt which wasn't really there. Do the job right: plenty research (talking to the right people) and go as wild as possible (within reason).

16v would have been a better route ?

If I was tuning a vtr I'd opt for a vts/s2 gearbox and i think that'd make it a lot better !! Especially with a nice camshaft and TB's

2nd March 2010, 19:35

16V is a good option for sure... low mileage JP4's can be had for very little these days - £100 if you look in the right places. But obviously you need a gearbox and to rob parts from a J4, drill a couple of holes for the inlet etc.

All depends on how it affects your insurance premium I guess. With the right company, I doubt there'd be much difference between the two options.

2nd March 2010, 19:39

Thanks you two...I'll get investigating the PT41, a gearbox is essential and is at the top of my list trust me

2nd March 2010, 19:43

My S2 box will be for sale in the summer when the car is getting the new engine sorted etc - got a be4r to replace it

Yeh, the key is research research research before spending your money !! Will be well worth the hours of reading through threads etc !!

2nd March 2010, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by raunchz

My S2 box will be for sale in the summer when the car is getting the new engine sorted etc - got a be4r to replace it

Yeh, the key is research research research before spending your money !! Will be well worth the hours of reading through threads etc !!

Ideally after a 1.4 xsi box... but keep me posted on it

25th September 2010, 14:55

Hi there. Just wondering whats the best setup for cams. I have kent cams already put in but not gettin a big difference in power. My mate said to post a thread askin what the best setup is for them

cheers

26th October 2010, 13:39

Couple of questions on fitting cams

Can you fit them without removing the head? Ie Working in the bay?

Do the pullys only fit onto the cams one way?

26th October 2010, 15:15

you can swap cams on the vts without removing the head, cam pulleys dont know just mark them with a marker pen before you take it to bits, label all the cam ladders and put them in bags you need to put them back in the same possitions and rotation as they are usually line bored.

25th November 2010, 10:38

I will be buying some cams about spring time next year and not sure whether to go ph3 or 708? Ive been offered some 708s cheap that have been hardly used so may be worth getting them.
I know theyre fairly the same but just would like peoples opinions.

25th November 2010, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsdvtr

I will be buying some cams about spring time next year and not sure whether to go ph3 or 708? Ive been offered some 708s cheap that have been hardly used so may be worth getting them.
I know theyre fairly the same but just would like peoples opinions.

if you want mate ill be selling my piper 285's around that time as im going bigger to ph4's-5's

1st March 2012, 18:20

Brought a vts with a set of 705s and vernier pulleys, it seems to missfire/stutter a bit under 3k. Could this be related to the cams/ pulleys set up incorectly? Cheers