Lookin to get around 180bhp from my vtr?

  1. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #1
    Well im new to saxos and this is my first one, had loads of other cars and been into modding for a while! We have annual 1/4 mile and track events where i stay and want something that will stand a chance in its class....

    Ive seen a lot of people saying about turbos etc and wondering what people would recomend? a few people said i can pick up a turbo conversion kit for £300? anybody do them on here?

    Also wondering what else i can do... ecu / throttle body / air intake /

    Car is a 02 VTR with pugsport 2" exhuast... other than that shes standard!

    Ideally want 180bhp but dont wanna mess around putting a 16v motor in... wanna stick with the vtr guts and just mod the hell out of her!

    the class im in has cars like mk2 golf syncros running around the 170-200bhp, toyota mr2 n/a so most cars are around the 150-200bhp mark, assuming its possible and not a fortune i wanna make my saxo a little stealthy pocket rocket
  2. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2011 huddersfield Posts: 2635 ph3'd c2 gt
    #2
    throttle bodies n cams? but i dont think theyd get you upto 180 horses on a vtr? not a 100% sure though
  3. Established Member Joined: Mar 2007 Edinburgh Posts: 2369
    #3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    Ideally want 180bhp but dont wanna mess around putting a 16v motor in... wanna stick with the vtr guts and just mod the hell out of her!
    I think most people will suggest you go for the 16v engine rather than keeping it 8v and trying to get 180bhp out of it, which is a BIG figure to go for.

    I'd suggest an engine conversion. If you want to stay N/A then you'd be looking at A LOT of engine work, probably around 2k worth. If you wanna go boosted then you may be looking at 2-3k or there abouts. The cheapest turbo build I know of is on 106OC and was done for £2100 or there about's.

    If you have a lot of money to throw at this then you'll have fun ! But when going for big power you'll come up against a lot of problems.

    I'd suggest going for the 16v engine and going for around 160bhp in the engine then spend money on the bodywork, polycarb windows, stripped interior, bucket seats and such.
  4. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857
    #4
    Turbo charge or super charge are good ways to get the power you are looking for. However £300 is not a realistic number for such a thing. Yes you do sometimes see people selling them at such prices however cheap does not make it good value. Even a recon turbo will cost you more then this. If you are able to do most of it your self you could do a turbo setup for around £1500. However I would tend to wish to spend more on things uprating parts that will brake once you get the turbo and even just replace or service warn parts as you dont get many low mile saxos these days.
  5. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #5
    you need a turbo for 180 bhp, and it will be much more like £3000+. you'll need about a bar of boost which will need forged low comp pistons and rods, a decent turbo, tubular manifold and good downpipe, 2.5" bore exhaust (from downpipe, not just the tip) decent intercooler, standalone ecu and new injectors
  6. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #6
    Dont suppose anyone has a full list of parts needed for a turbo conversion... dont wanna stay N/a wanna go Turbo'd...

    Alot turbos kicking around here so getting a turbo is no issue, same with intercooler its the other bits im not sure about

    also what would you recomend for an ecu upgrade / remap / standalone?

    ive seen some 80mm universal throttle bodies on ebay... look like crap as there £80 but are they any good?
  7. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Apr 2007 Bournemouth Posts: 15289 '04 VW Transporter.
    #7
    Boost will be needed unless you have very deep pockets which you wont have.

    Have a search, been covered more times than a whores face.
  8. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo
    #8
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ali123 View Post
    throttle bodies n cams? but i dont think theyd get you upto 180 horses on a vtr? not a 100% sure though
    would take a lot of money to get to 180bhp n/a, you would be needing a forged bottom end to get a 16v motor to 180bhp so to get a 8v motor to 180bhp your looking at a lot of work, its cost me about £2k to get 155bhp with cams, bodies and ecu, for me to get to the next stage so around 180-195bhp then im looking at about £2k worth of extra parts then the labour on top to fit it all

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LeeM View Post
    you need a turbo for 180 bhp, and it will be much more like £3000+. you'll need about a bar of boost which will need forged low comp pistons and rods, a decent turbo, tubular manifold and good downpipe, 2.5" bore exhaust (from downpipe, not just the tip) decent intercooler, standalone ecu and new injectors
    as leeM said i would go the turbo route to get 180bhp, however i dont agree witht he second part of your statemnt mate, im sure blackie has over 200bhp on a standard vtr engine with his turbo set up

    and yes get £300 out your head thats a drop in the ocean if you want to stay 8v, the best thing you can do with £300 is buy a 16v engine covnersion and get 120bhp out the box, as said to get 180bhp you could have a low boost mild spec turbo which should easily see you with the extra 60bhp but if you want it n/a then its going to cost a LOT more!
  9. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Apr 2007 Bournemouth Posts: 15289 '04 VW Transporter.
    #9
    Yeah that made 220hp iirc but look at how long it lasts
  10. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #10
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brand-New-...item23191e252c

    those? dont bother you wont gain any power. you need individual throttle bodies and even then you dont really gain power without lots of mods.

    you'll need standalone management for a turbo if you want 180bhp.
  11. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #11
    im talking about reliable power. you could get 200bhp with a £300 turbo kit yeah, it would last 3 miles
  12. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo
    #12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    Dont suppose anyone has a full list of parts needed for a turbo conversion... dont wanna stay N/a wanna go Turbo'd...

    Alot turbos kicking around here so getting a turbo is no issue, same with intercooler its the other bits im not sure about

    also what would you recomend for an ecu upgrade / remap / standalone?

    ive seen some 80mm universal throttle bodies on ebay... look like crap as there £80 but are they any good?
    off the top of my head (im no expert at all)

    -turbo (my mate is selling a recon T2 turbo in the for sale section atm
    -manifold and downpipe
    -oil feed and oil return lines (boss welded in to sump)
    -intercooler
    -boost pipes from turbo to intercooler, intercooler to t/b, turbo to air filter
    -dump valve
    -bigger injectors
    -standalone ecu such as preadtor, omex, emerald etcc

    dont think ive missed anything, oh yea and then mapping on top, then as you said shes standard you'll be wanting suspension (shocks, springs, bushes, renewing worm parts), brakes (discs, pads, hoses, fluid, maybe master cylinder, braided lines etc), decent tires, maybe a rebuilt gearbox with stronger internals, better clutch etcc
  13. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo
    #13
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MiniGibbo View Post
    Yeah that made 220hp iirc but look at how long it lasts
    wasnt that just a worn out engine though? lol dont really know all the ins and outs of it lol but at leasat you can pick 8v engines up for pennies
  14. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #14
    yeah new clutch, id like a diff with 180bhp as well
  15. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #15
    so if i didnt go turbo what could i expect to get out of a vtr engine and what cost?

    dont want to change engine as saxo is a track day car, got enough work on my mr2 without pulling saxo to bits
  16. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #16
    no turbo you could change the cam, fit itb's, predator ecu. probably in the region of £1500-2000 you might get to 130bhp.
  17. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo
    #17
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    so if i didnt go turbo what could i expect to get out of a vtr engine and what cost?

    dont want to change engine as saxo is a track day car, got enough work on my mr2 without pulling saxo to bits
    tbf a 16v conversion can be done in a day if you have all the tools/parts/know how, really isnt hard as long as you dont do what alot of people on here do "can i run my vts engine on my 1.1 ecu and loom" or anything daft like that and then wonder why it doesnt start lol

    a common(ish) thing to do is fit the s1 1.3 106 rallye cylinder head, inlet, ecu and loom along with a newmans ph2 cam and a remap this is said to give arund 120-130bhp but this is alot more work than simply fiting a 16v engine and a shit load more expensive

    to a lot of people its very daunting thinking about swapping an engine but its so much less work than faffing around with an 8v, swapping an engine is easy but swapping a cylinder head, head gasket, cambelt, fitting a rallye inlet, splicing looms together to get it all to work is a ball ache and you do need specific know how to do all of that, i tried it and failed and went the easy route and put a 16v engine in
  18. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #18
    you oculd cut that down by getting bike bodies, second hand cam, etc.

    realistically the cheapest and easiest way to gain 30bhp is to fit a vts engine, and thats probably less work than fitting a new cam, tb's ecu and getting it mapped.
  19. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo
    #19
    if you are interested in that route read this off 106owners, its about fitting the lot to a quicksivler but same principle
    http://www.106owners.co.uk/forums/sh...on-quicksilver
  20. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo
    #20
    yea as LeeM said costs range widely i bought my jenveys for £400 they usually go second hand for £500-600 but they are £1300 brand spanking, ATP bodies are £900, can get a fully bolt on gsxr1000 kit for about £600-700

    always bargains popping up in the forsale section, i got my cams £30 off becaue i bought them second hand but still brand new in box etc, i got my ecu in a group buy so saved a fair chunk of money etc

    im not so hot on 8v tuning but if you decide what route you wnana take me or other members will find it easier giving you better advise
  21. Established Member Joined: Mar 2007 Edinburgh Posts: 2369
    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    so if i didnt go turbo what could i expect to get out of a vtr engine and what cost?

    dont want to change engine as saxo is a track day car, got enough work on my mr2 without pulling saxo to bits
    Why don't you want to go down the conversion route ? It''ll save you money in the long run and be well worth it. Is it an MR2 turbo you have ? Money Pits those engines and car in general.

    PS Now you say it's a track car, not a 1/4 car. You just changed the whole build for the entire thing.
  22. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #22
    cool thanks appreciate it, think il see what parts i can get up here for turbo conversion... stay in shetland isles!

    im pretty sure i can get a T2 and intercooler for next to nowt, oil feed and return wouldnt be done by a mate whos a fabricator so would leave the rest, think the ecu would be main issue...

    il have a look round at vts engines and cams for the vtr etc... prob with up here is a vts engine will cost me a fortune in frieght! not like south where its cheap as hell lol
  23. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Mar 2009 Uppingham, Rutland Posts: 9569 mk1 JP4'd VTR, '16 Fabia Monte Carlo
    #23
    lol thats a fair point
  24. Established Member Joined: Mar 2007 Edinburgh Posts: 2369
    #24
    Is there no scrap yards you could try ?
  25. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B
    #25
    My car didnt break as a result of the turbo

    It broke as I left the soft white springs that silvertops come with

    I was having thoughts that my dump valve spring was too soft as it was dumping too easy.. So I did something you should never do lol

    Revved the tits off it when it was stood still(no load) and as the springs are so soft the valves bounced and clipped the piston on cylinder 3

    Im still running the same engine now
  26. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #26
    nah none, well one but not a scrap yard like south it basically gets cars and crushes them no parts removed!

    so most stuff up here stays up here... no vts saxo's tho, 4 vtrs breakin for spares tho! lol we have amotorsport club with 3/400 members and a few local forums so can advertise for bits but due to the sea air etc most cars rot out withing 12 months of been parked up!
  27. Frequent Poster Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 669
    #27
    What im looking at.

    http://www.noswizard.com/index.php/c...rous-kits.html
  28. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #28
    If you're really serious about it and don't mind putting money into decent components, look at the kits on dp engineerings website
  29. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #29
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by saladdodger View Post
    I did consider that option but how long would the engine last running nos through it? deffo cheapest bang for your buck!

    Sorry its 1/4 mile we do always been called track days tho... also do a 2 mile hill climb (tar and gravel road)

    the mr2 is a 2.0 N/A steeered clear of the turbo engine as there nothing but hassles! its a rev 3 173bhp as standard... saxo vtr has a faster 0-60 time tho lol
  30. Established Member Joined: Mar 2012 Posts: 1411
    #30
    http://www.saxperience.com/forum/sho...ht=turbo+parts

    Have a read of this mate. Gives a pretty good idea of whats involved!
  31. Infrequent Poster Joined: Apr 2012 Moortown, Leeds Posts: 156 5dr Bianca 306
    #31
    My mates dad who is an engine builder (a 205 with his engine in is the record holder at Harewood Hillclimb) managed to get 150 (or there abouts) from a 1400cc. That was on twin-webbers tho. Will get a better spec later on if you want, just shows you don't always need BOOOOOOOST.

    (but you still need DEEP pockets for that kind of power)
  32. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Sep 2009 Stranraer Posts: 3437 bodied VTR
    #32
    I have a full turbo kit that cost me about 500ish and would not be far way from 180bhp so it is easy done tbh
  33. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire
    #33
    Really not cost effective to stay with the 8v.

    JP4 engine, can see 180hp with standard bottom end if you really want however as mentioned none of it will be cheap.

    As said, you CAN pick up cheap turbo kits but a half arsed build will always end the same way..... more expensive.

    Also why do you need 180hp? have you not looked at gearing and weight first if its purelly for 1/4's?
  34. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #34
    cheers for that, can the standard saxo manifold be modefied and turbo flange fitted?
  35. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #35
    my brothers running a mk2 golf syncro (4wd) wieghs 900kgs and is pushing 200bhp so i need summit thats gonna give some kind of run against that,

    what options have i got with gearing?
  36. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire
    #36
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    my brothers running a mk2 golf syncro (4wd) wieghs 900kgs and is pushing 200bhp so i need summit thats gonna give some kind of run against that,

    what options have i got with gearing?
    well you want short, if the cars only used for 1/4 mile in an ideal world you would be at the end of final gear as you cross the line.....

    Shortest ratio box available as an oem part is 1.3 rallye iirc (could be wrong there) but how much money do you have to spend? Quaife can do a custom gear kit.
  37. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #37
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tom5190 View Post
    Shortest ratio box available as an oem part is 1.3 rallye iirc (could be wrong there) but how much money do you have to spend? Quaife can do a custom gear kit.
    Same ratios as all the other sports gearboxes, just has a different final drive.

    Therefore for a peaky engine the rev drops between gears will be the same.
  38. L-plater Joined: Jun 2012 Sandwick, shetland Posts: 90 Saxo VTR Mk2, MR2 G Limited Rev 3
    #38
    the prob with a stupidly close box is the car still has to be driven 50 miles to event... so has to be drivable.

    not seen much info on gearing on them or changes... know the gearbox's are pretty soft and thrust bearings are common on them but thats about it
  39. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Sep 2007 Someones Bumhole Posts: 5721 Mk2 16v Desire
    #39
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Same ratios as all the other sports gearboxes, just has a different final drive.

    Therefore for a peaky engine the rev drops between gears will be the same.
    Thats the one

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    the prob with a stupidly close box is the car still has to be driven 50 miles to event... so has to be drivable.

    not seen much info on gearing on them or changes... know the gearbox's are pretty soft and thrust bearings are common on them but thats about it
    Well then you need to compromise, which is not a good thing when you want to build a car to be the best at 1 thing.
  40. Super Moderator Joined: Feb 2004 Tonbridge United Kingdom (England) Posts: 38236 Vtr, 172, throttle bodied track slut
    #40
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    the prob with a stupidly close box is the car still has to be driven 50 miles to event... so has to be drivable.

    not seen much info on gearing on them or changes... know the gearbox's are pretty soft and thrust bearings are common on them but thats about it
    Boxes are not that weak tbh, most people who kill them shouldn't be allowed near a manual gearboxes.

    Putting big power through the diffs though can cause issues, which is why most who have aftermarket diffs run the boxes problem free for a long time.
    1 user thanked this post:
  41. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B
    #41
    ive ran 185ATW's through mine for over 5k and its not gone

    dont think the car hasnt been abused for over 4k of those (thats what i built it for)

    but if your not a bell end wheel spinning out of every junction or dropping the clutch at high revs when stationary/still.. all the time they can last you a while

    my diff is starting to whine but im very pleased with how long its lasted so far (one shaft is also clicking a bit lol)
  42. Saxperience Post Whore Joined: Feb 2008 Liverpool Posts: 7393 Black Corsa C SRi
    #42
    I've only ever killed diff's, and that was due to a complete lack of mechnical sympathy
  43. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Jan 2008 Down't road from Sheffield Posts: 4641 Was:16v 106 XS ..... Now: Import 1.8 MX5
    #43
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    the prob with a stupidly close box is the car still has to be driven 50 miles to event... so has to be drivable.
    50 miles isn't far, and an S1 Rallye box would be fine, a lot of people use them on their cars daily...
  44. Saxperience Hardcore! Joined: Oct 2008 Birtley Posts: 22253 VTR Turbo, 106 xsi track slag, Transit recovery, B
    #44
    just take a few jerry cans with you
  45. Established Member Joined: Mar 2010 Basildon, Essex Posts: 1042 Citroen AX VTS
    #45
    mine costs me about 35p per mile in petrol i reckon

    mapped a bit rich though
  46. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: Aug 2010 Midlands Posts: 2530 AX 16v Turbo
    #46
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Boxes are not that weak tbh, most people who kill them shouldn't be allowed near a manual gearboxes.

    Putting big power through the diffs though can cause issues, which is why most who have aftermarket diffs run the boxes problem free for a long time.
    He's planning to launch it on a drag strip, an ma box with decent power will last 5mins. It might last long if taken care of but 1/4 mile events will not bode well for the ma.
  47. Frequent Poster Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 669
    #47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yellow160 View Post
    I did consider that option but how long would the engine last running nos through it? deffo cheapest bang for your buck!
    Bloody ages if you use it right, not much different to a highly tuned turbo lump, if you start with a good engine it will be fine, my mate nova(s) and corsa(s) have run NOS for a long time, was 100% OK
  48. Saxperience Forum Bum Joined: May 2007 Posts: 4857
    #48
    N2O has many of the same problems as running boost. The same problems of cooling, same problems of auto ignition, same problems for torque braking all sorts of parts. So for a car running 180bhp from N2O or turbo you need the same sort of engine and drive upgrades for a given reliability. for example uprated clutch, stronger diff, low compression and so on.

    N2O also has the added cost that the gas is dam expensive! Its ok for the odd quarter mile run every so often but as soon as you start using it more often you will soon wish you had plumbed for the turbo.

    So before jumping in and thinking N2O is cheap have a bit of a think about what you really want from your car.
  49. Frequent Poster Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 669
    #49
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AXracing View Post
    N2O has many of the same problems as running boost. The same problems of cooling, same problems of auto ignition, same problems for torque braking all sorts of parts. So for a car running 180bhp from N2O or turbo you need the same sort of engine and drive upgrades for a given reliability. for example uprated clutch, stronger diff, low compression and so on.

    N2O also has the added cost that the gas is dam expensive! Its ok for the odd quarter mile run every so often but as soon as you start using it more often you will soon wish you had plumbed for the turbo.

    So before jumping in and thinking N2O is cheap have a bit of a think about what you really want from your car.
    Agree, sorry i should of covered that, i'll be using mine on track (not a road car) eventually and track days will only be a few a year, im not doing timed sprints/1/4 miles.